
I'm done with math. I'm simply not teaching it.
I am teaching what my kids ask to learn. Right now we are mastering jumping on the bed.
Here is why I don't think I need to teach math.
1. Learning fundamental math is like reading – kids will take the lead.
My son asked to learn addition, subtraction and multiplication before age seven. So obviously he knows how to ask for what he wants in regard to learning math. He learned it pretty quickly. He is not great at multiplying two digits by two digits, but honestly, neither am I.
It's clear to me that rudimentary math is like reading. Sooner or later kids get curious so they ask.
My older son learned math basics in school. Both sons liked math and then lost interest at long division. This is not a surprising: long division is largely useless.
2. It's like science. You can learn on the job.
The idea that there is some set science curriculum for the planet is delusional. What we teach in science is cultural, and test-based, and effectively random. If you live on a farm, you know tons of science. If you get a childhood disease you know tons of science. The same is true with math. You learn what you need to learn in order to do your life. Each person's life demands different pieces of knowledge.
I was in special ed math and then, as an adult, I taught myself the math I needed to run three startups. I have never met someone who was stuck in their career because they didn't know algebra. If you are good at your job, you learn the math you need to know to succeed. It's never too late. If a high schooler can learn to solve for x in one year, an adult can learn it in a month.
For the most part, the New York Times reports, you won't need the math kids learn in school. You will never need to know when two trains going at different speeds will meet. We have train schedules.
Math is a time-consuming, linear process of learning. You need to learn one thing before you learn another in order to advance. And during that process, you learn new ways to think and see the world. This is true of learning a second language if one is not spoken at home. This is true of learning to play music. There are many ways to expand one's thinking. There is no reason why everyone should choose math and some people choose to add music or a language. Why not have everyone learn music and some people choose to learn math?
4. Teaching math beyond the basics is useless. You have to teach to curiosity instead.
This is a description of a math teacher's experience teaching math at the college level:
"People come into really basic math classes in college and flounder because their foundations are laid so poorly, and what little they do know is in the form of memorized formulas and ad hoc processes. So they aren't able to apply logical processes in any way, which is supposedly the entire point of learning math.
"It makes me think of the birth of science during the Middle Ages, where minds were so burdened with dogma that people weren't able to see obvious facts even when presented with the simplest, most straightforward evidence—the earth goes around the sun, a bowling ball will fall to the ground as quickly as a marble, etc. (I'm simplifying a complex historical process, of course, but you get the idea.) A tiny bit of curiosity and logic would go much further."
So math is not a path to learn curiosity. It's the other way around. You have to be born with a certain sense of curiosity. The math whiz is not curious about what shade of lipstick looks best against African-American skin, but do we fret that the person needs to learn curiosity? No. We accept that someone is curious about what they are passionate about. You cannot teach that. Which is why you cannot teach math effectively without curiosity about math in the first place.
It's clear that kids who are great at math can teach themselves with very little guidance. Look at this kid who is sixteen and solving 350-year-old math problems. Believe me, there was no adult teaching him what to do. Maybe he had someone teaching him when he was nine, but surely he was driving that education plan and not the other way around.
And this is not anomalous for math. Most huge math breakthroughs stem from a man (it's almost always a man) in his twenties. Because if you are good at math, you can teach yourself what you need to know relatively quickly. Surely this is an argument for the idea that you do not need to teach math to kids who aren't great at it. We don't need to know differential equations for anything but the AP Test.
If you think your kid is great at math, instead of teaching your kid, just send your kid to the Math Olympiad. Parents who do this focus on learning for the love of learning rather than for passing a test. And a huge percentage of math Olympiad students go on to get math Phd's.
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I stopped caring about math in the fifth grade (which, coincidentally or not, was when they really started to hammer long division). For the rest of my life I've been telling people I suck at math, but that's not really true. I'm pretty fast at it in my head. I just hate it because it hasn't ever seemed essential to anything I care about, and thus it always just feels like busywork. Language, on the other hand…I'm passionate about language. Language was definitely what taught me to see the world in different ways–like, "red car," in other languages, is sometimes "car red." Linguistics taught me that it was my mind that was closed because until I started learning about how different languages work, "red car" was the only way it sounded "right" to me. And you don't even necessarily have to learn or know a second language to study linguistics, although it will make language learning much easier. I always tell my students that I love linguistics because it's like a math I can understand. While teaching college students linguistics, I saw more lightbulbs go on behind eyes than I ever saw when I was sitting in a college math classroom (or any math classroom at all, honestly). I think kids (or at least, kids like me) should be learning linguistics, not math. If we're going to stick to the "subject" format (which is outdated and useless, of course), I think linguistics should be a subject in schools. For some kids, it would forge the same brain paths that math does (or can) for the kids who really love math.
Posted by Nicole on August 16, 2012 at 8:23 am | permalink |
i agree. i hated math in school. when i was applying for graduate school (in a subject i loved) i had to take the gre. i was motivated and studied for a month and aced the math section. i did have the basics, but the (re)learning was fast and easy.
Posted by amy (mamascout) on August 16, 2012 at 8:41 am | permalink |
Because GRE is simple! and in india or china or turkey, a regular kid at age 13 can ace that exam.
Posted by ahmet on December 10, 2012 at 2:02 pm | permalink |
My parents used to scream at me for not being interested in math. My dad would say "You don't try hard at anything you aren't interested in." He was so frustrated with me. Now I think back on it and realize that of course I don't. I still don't. I work hard at the things that matter to me. I am intrinsically motivated to learn more about certain subjects, and not others. Math was not one of the things that drove my curiosity.
Posted by Margaret M. on August 16, 2012 at 8:44 am | permalink |
I was told that I don't try hard at math either. When, in fact, I was trying so hard that I still, to this day, have nightmares about not doing well in math.
Isn't it amazing that it's a valid criticism to tell someone they only try hard when they are interested in something? Because in the corporate world, where people actually study productivity, it's taken as a given that people will not perform well when they are not interested. So why bother forcing kids to learn this supposed real world skill?
In fact, now that I write this, I don't actually think that our society believes that people should try hard when they aren't interested. Our society just believes in protecting the idea of sending kids away for the day, for free, so we tell kids that trying hard for stuff they don't care about is a good skill to learn in order to not feel guilty about forcing the kids to get cookie-cutter curriculum.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on August 16, 2012 at 5:50 pm | permalink |
Well, your point about cookie-cutter curriculum is because you're looking at this through a homeschool advocacy lens, I think. I think the thing about science and math is that science and math My parents were boomers who lived through the space race. Sputnik was a watershed moment in their lives. My grandfather pioneered New Math (yeesh) but outside of family history, there is a prevailing attitude that STEM subjects are vitally important. And if you aren't interested, either schools or parents or you are doing something wrong.
My favorite person in my teen years was an English teacher who showed me that literature was an important thing. She helped me justify my love of books and reading and helped me understand why the arts are important (because they teach you about people). I think I loved her so much because she taught me that if my passion lay elsewhere, that would be okay and I could still be useful in society.
Posted by Margaret on August 17, 2012 at 7:58 am | permalink |
As an adult, I have different things that interest me. I am interested in being able to do things because I enjoy them; but I am also interested in making money to support my family at a certain level, being able to move up in my career, being able to to have access to activities I enjoy, etc. I often do things that don't particularly interest me in themselves, but they interest me as an ends to another interest (e.g. I'm not particularly interested in washing dishes, but I'm interested in staying healthy and not getting food poisoning). There are also parts of my job that I don't particularly care for, but I still do them well because I'm paid to do so; because I would like to keep a job that I mostly enjoy; because even if the task itself isn't enthralling, accomplishing something that took effort is; and because if they aren't done well, I can't do the parts I enjoy.)
I also think in the work world, there is frequently the assumption that the ability to continue to have a paying job/possibly move up is sufficient reason for you to do your job to an adequate or better level for your employers' purposes. You may have mentors and workfriends, but a lot of co-workers/management are not going to be that concerned with how interested you are, but rather what you produce. I am not a proponent of being miserable, by all means based on your life interests and opportunities available, strive for and do what makes you happiest/most fulfilled. However, I think your happiness/fufillment is not going to be a priority for very many folks or the world at large. It is important to recognize that, in the interest of larger goals, sometimes it is in your best interests to do something well, even if you dislike it. I think this is why criticism gets leveled at statements about only being able to do something well, if I am interested in it.
Posted by lyy on August 17, 2012 at 8:55 am | permalink |
I have known since I was 17 that I was responsible for my own happiness/fulfillment in life. I try to to fit into the world and provide value for the world (and in return, receive a paycheck) in ways that don't destroy my happiness. I have realistic expectations for my job and of course it isn't always interesting, but most of the time it is. I definitely work hard when I'm curious/excited/interested in what I'm doing and my employers appreciate that. I pay a penalty in salary because there are lots of women who like to do what I do, but I also have a husband in IT. His work is often interesting to him and it pays twice what mine does. I am his career coach, personal cheer leader and pseudo-therapist. I help him do work that is more economically valuable in exchange for not having to be the breadwinner. But I make life better for him, I hope!
Posted by Margaret on August 17, 2012 at 9:42 am | permalink |
That's funny. At my son's last 3rd grade parent-teacher conference his (Montessori) teacher told me with a snear that he only works hard at things that he likes to do. I was thinking, "isn't that what Montessori is all about?" I am homeschooling now.
Posted by Kristin on August 22, 2012 at 12:16 am | permalink |
i loved math. I loved its rules. but in school it was too easy. then I went to MIT.
I'm a software engineer now, and a few years ago I tried to help highschoolers with their math: I had forgotten it all because I don't use it.
the only math I use today is:
1)algebra
2)discrete math and probability: which I learned at MIT.
civil and/or electrical engineers and/or physicists may actually still use that higher math; but most people don't need it.
(I also use algebra to scale recipes in the kitchen)
Posted by jill on August 16, 2012 at 9:25 am | permalink |
Totally agree with you. My kids hated the algorithms, like how to do long division, so I gave up teaching them. We did do a fair amount of problem solving, games and logic-type stuff because they liked that. When my older two decided to go from homeschooling to high school, they transitioned into good grades in math just fine, because they wanted to do well. (It was all about having their own grand college plans; I had nothing to do with that.)
Here's a TED talk of a guy who teaches middle school math and is a homeschooling father who also agrees with you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyowJZxrtbg
Posted by patricia on August 16, 2012 at 9:26 am | permalink |
Um, yr quote is wrong. The earth goes around the sun…
Posted by Leon Hewer on August 16, 2012 at 10:02 am | permalink |
Yeah. Good point. Thanks, Leon.
Side note: This is a great example of how impossible it is to proofread posts. The guy sent the email and he didn't catch the error. I read the guy's email and didn't catch the error. I put it in my post and my editor read it and didn't catch it. When I think about how much it must cost newspapers to make sure they are error-free, I think: this is why newspapers can't turn a profit.
Okay. So anyway, thank you for stepping in as the proofreader. It's a pretty egregious error, I have to say. Luckily, it's the Internet, so I can just go fix it right now.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on August 16, 2012 at 10:50 am | permalink |
People hate math and make up these excuses for why it's useless because they find it hard. But it's not hard — the K-12 math is simple procedures that anyone can learn. It might be boring, but it's not hard.
What it does require is some minimal amount of understanding, beyond pure memorization. Unfortunately, it's one of the few subjects in a K-12 classroom where that's true. We teach our kids to just memorize and regurgitate material on tests, then forget it all. Since they can't do that with math, the schools have responded by dumbing down math. And kids still can't do it and hate it and tell themselves they don't need it.
I think this just shows how worthless and shallow the rest of their education is, not how useless math is.
You are right that you can get through life without knowing anything more than the most basic arithmetic. And most of science and technology, finance and economics will be a closed book to you.
You are also right that brilliant self-motivated kids will pick it up sometime. Very few kids will go back as adults and learn real math.
Like it or not, they are shutting themselves out of a huge range of careers, and closing off large areas of knowledge by skipping math. It's no different than if you didn't expose them to any art or music or literature. Worse really, because art is all around us. It's easy to never be exposed to any real math and not even know it exists if you aren't.
Posted by MichaelG on August 16, 2012 at 10:27 am | permalink |
What's the problem, though? I accept the fact that my educational choices closed doors to me. I will never be a scientist, an engineer, or a CFO. But I strongly suspect I would have been miserable as those things. Thankfully, I have discovered that I have different talents and skills, and I do my best to find my niche in the world. Our job as adults is to make the best use of the gifts we have while working around our shortcomings.
Posted by Margaret M. on August 16, 2012 at 11:03 am | permalink |
It's hard to come up with an analogy that isn't trivial or condescending, so forgive me if this comes off that way.
People confuse arithmetic with math. Arithmetic is like handwriting or typing. High school math is (at best) like writing sentences out of context. Really learning math would be like writing essays. A science/technology/finance career is like writing novels.
Real math starts with algebra and geometry. In algebra, you are basically given a toolkit of techniques you can apply to problems. Learning algebra means knowing when to use those tools. And it teaches you to take apart problems and use your tools to move from what you have to what you want to know. It also exposes you to the idea that various variables have a fixed relationship to one another, and you can learn things by exploring those relationships.
Geometry is the first time kids are exposed to the idea of formal proof. That's not just a mathematical concept — it's fundamental to all kinds of logical reasoning.
I tutored a bit back when I was in college, and I was amazed at how many otherwise bright kids just couldn't understand the basics of "a variable" or "a proof." Their K-12 education had just taught them to memorize everything, and that the answers were in the material somewhere if you just read it carefully enough. They had no ability to analyze problems at all.
So on the one hand, I sympathize with people who say "I'll never use math and who cares?" The way math and science are taught in school, it's no wonder people hate it.
On the other hand, what some people are saying here is equivalent (to me) to saying "I taught the kids their ABC's, so now they can read and write, OK? And after all, how many people make a living as authors?"
Posted by MichaelG on August 16, 2012 at 11:43 am | permalink |
I am a civil engineer. After learning my times tables I finally started to like math because it seemed to have right and wrong answers (of course later in life I realized theoretical math wasn't this way). I liked math but did have struggles with it.
I grew to LOVE math when I took my applied engineering coursework in college. Ahhhh! This is the how and why it works. It was the context I needed to feel (literally) good in my skin while learning math. The learning it for learning sake just never felt good (in my head and in my physical body) to me. Learning it with context made all the pieces fall into place in a satisfying and calming way.
In our homeshcooling I do teach arithmetic and mathematics (it is the one thing we two engineer parents have insisted on) but have always tried to keep it in context. I try to keep the how and why in it so my kids could understand not just memorize stuff.
My kids have enjoyed and relished their understanding of mathematics when we do Destination Imagination or LEGO FIRST Robotics or Backyard Ballistics or similar projects/programs. My eldest son is happily working on his own Eagle project and it requires a good deal of engineering and mathematics as well as welding and machining.
I agree teaching mathematics in school/homeschool is not a good idea. I agree following a child's lead on interest is a good idea. I believe the way mathematics is taught in America is counterproductive and damaging to the idea that *I am good at maths* for most people.
I believe it is the WAY we teach mathematics that makes it so wrong for so many people.
Posted by MoniqueWS on August 17, 2012 at 10:28 am | permalink |
(Caveat – I was a math major and do love math).
I understand the frustration with how math is taught in typical school.
However, math is more than arithmetic. It is also more than algebra. It is a huge toolbox that can be used to help you visualize and solve a wide range of problems.
Yes, slide rules and long division are probably of little use, but understanding linear algebra is key to really understanding and using spreadsheets. Statistics actually pretty useful for a lot of business planning (at least at a basic level).
I found mathematics a very powerful tool for learning to think in different ways. But that was partially in spite of how I was taught.
If you don't have exposure to the tools, you don't even know what you don't know and can't learn "just in time".
I don't have a curriculum to offer, but I think no math instruction, is not a great answer.
Computer games and programming may be a way to open up this world for children that was not available to you and I… and programming is another skill that is probably actually almost necessary today that was not in "my day" (not so long ago).
(Thank you for your blog on homeschooling, while I sometimes disagree with your points, you raise great questions for a Dad considering homeschooling).
Steve
Posted by Steven Davis on August 16, 2012 at 11:50 am | permalink |
I simply don't understand why Math is considered useless – maybe because I am biased – I love math and could never get into enough depth in school, which deeply disappointed me. Part of it was the general consensus that girls don't need math, it was rather frustrating. The long division is not math – it is a tool like the ability to sharpen a pencil or sort things in alphabetical order, which is also not considered writing. But math and science is not absorbed by learning a few snippets here and there – the snippets are interesting but don't allow to form a thorough understanding of the subject. As was pointed out in previous emails: learning an instrument required decades of dedication to master it, the same is true for math and science.
And as a sidenote: yes, there are timetables and GPS and planes, and they do not just function by magic; they all require a large investment in understanding math (the timetable), physics (theory of relativity is essential to keep the GPS correct), and hydrodynamics (the Bernoulli equation keeps the plane up and in the air and the sailboat sailing). Many people make their living building those things, and fortunately they have a good grasp of the math and science, not useless at all.
Posted by redrock on August 16, 2012 at 12:08 pm | permalink |
The problem with the attitude of not needing math in everyday life and/or career is this: if you don't learn about math, then you don't understand when you need it and when you don't.
I recently had a long and frustrating conversation with an autism behavioral therapist who was trying to use data to support a particular result. But when analyzed statistically, the data didn't support the result. She insisted that she didn't need to use statistical reasoning, because the data "obviously" supported the result. The problem was that she didn't know enough about statistics to know that she needed to use statistics.
P.S. When ever somebody tells you something is "obvious", you should become very suspicious.
Posted by Jason on August 16, 2012 at 12:30 pm | permalink |
nice statement about the "obvious". And, one last comment on the cultural aspect of science: you might use different parts of a science curriculum (or book or lecture or…), but the science itself is independent of culture. An apple falls towards the ground due to the force of gravity no matter where you are.
Posted by redrock on August 16, 2012 at 12:41 pm | permalink |
I love this TEDx talk – "Why Math Instruction is Unnecessary," from a math teacher who homeschools his own kids – and thought it was perfectly relevant to your post. If what we're really trying to teach kids with math is inductive and deductive reasoning, there are other ways of doing that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyowJZxrtbg
Posted by Kathryn on August 16, 2012 at 12:43 pm | permalink |
not sure about this one: we should teach math as math. Why should math only be a vehicle to teach reasoning? Maybe we should learn the art of reasoning in order to understand math.
Posted by redrock on August 16, 2012 at 1:09 pm | permalink |
School math doesn't apply to my job. But now that I think about it, NOTHING I learned up through high school directly applies to my job, except reading, writing and typing. Oh, and washing my hands after going to the bathroom. Everything else I learned later. So I guess school was an epic waste of time. Jeez, now I'm depressed.
Posted by BA on August 16, 2012 at 1:12 pm | permalink |
No need to be depressed. Just remember it, should you have kids. You don't have to subject them to the same fate.
Posted by Cristen H on August 16, 2012 at 3:51 pm | permalink |
I'm not sure how anyone got "math is useless" from this post. I like the distinction made in the comments between arithmetic and math. It looks like PT is referring to arithmetic in point #1, not math. Further points made in the post show that people learn when motivated, like PT starting businesses, or a kid who wants to be an engineer. Because this is a homeschooloing blog, I'll continue in those terms. An unschooling parent observes kids and their passions, supports and guides the pursuit of those passions to as far as the kids want to go, sometimes beyond. "I won't teach math", as a curriculum or daily forced exercise, leaves plenty of room to encourage a mechanical kid to Legos, or a musical kid to an instrument, building and creating, then discussions of what's needed to make a life of that interest, including learning math, one way or another. PT's kids are classically trained in music. Their minds are being prepped for math, should they choose it. I am not immune to the comment about not knowing math means you don't know when you need it. I am a nature and music lover who never learned math or musicianship. I wonder all the time about how math describes the world around us, I wish I could make music with my kids. The most compelling of PT's points to me is #4, about curiosity. How do you engage curiosity, introduce concepts that are hard to grasp, require practice,concentration and persistence, and not turn it into a giant, neverending power struggle?
Posted by Cristen H on August 16, 2012 at 3:49 pm | permalink |
I have nothing relevant to add except I LOVE math.
Posted by Rachel on August 16, 2012 at 4:18 pm | permalink |
I've said it a bajillion times (that's a math term!) The time line of institutional elementary education is arbitrary as is the curriculum. None of the facts make children smarter. They are simply some facts one might teach some children. No better nor more necessary than anything else a child could be learning.
Anyone interested in learning math can do so. Its not hard. Its just another language one might choose to learn.
Posted by P Flooers on August 16, 2012 at 4:47 pm | permalink |
Hated math in school — I would get lost and embarrassed to ask (yet again) for an explanation. Went to community college and had to start from the beginning with Basic Math. The textbooks were "self taught" and guided me through each section, step-by-step. There was a "lab" where I could ask questions if I got irreversibly stuck. I met my future husband there: a math guy.
Meanwhile, as a homeschooling mom, I'm drawn back to math in teaching my kids. The book "Why Pi" combines history (a love) with math. It's remarkable how people figured things out by trial/error. Humans are amazing! Math is amazing!
I'll always be slow at math–I have to think hard about it, draw it out, etc–but I appreciate it now.
Posted by Jennifer on August 16, 2012 at 6:54 pm | permalink |
Last link on the text "… for the love of learning rather than for passing a test." doesn't work … from another one of your editors/proofreaders.
Posted by Mark W. on August 16, 2012 at 7:45 pm | permalink |
Fixed it. Thanks for catching that, Mark.
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on August 17, 2012 at 12:50 am | permalink |
I was terrible at math in school. One of the things that attracted me to court reporting was no math, except to calculate my pay and figure out percentages for commissions, which is easy to figure out anyway. It seems you figure out what kind of math you're going to need along the way, regardless of what you learned in school.
Posted by Rachel D. on August 16, 2012 at 10:09 pm | permalink |
Unfortunately, unless you have a decent math foundation you will never be able to manage your own money. The less control you have over your money, the less control you have over your life. Likewise, a parent who has the attitude that math is unimportant will pass that feeling along to their child. I worry that we will have a generation of children who are unable to understand their own finances or even the math behind the electoral college.
Posted by Serena on August 16, 2012 at 11:34 pm | permalink |
I'm glad you mentioned this, Serena. Because your concern illustrates an important point. Math is a representational language. Math is not a real thing. Its a system of symbols that represents real things.
So, if I want to scale a recipe up or down, I don't need algebra. What I really need is a good working understanding of food and the chemistry of food.
If I want to understand time, I don't need math. I need experience with how minutes and hours combine and flow.
If I want to understand money, I don't need math. I need to hold coins and paper and trade them. And think about where to put them and how to get more of them.
Math can be helpful in all of these situations. And every one of these situations can be used to teach the language of math. But there is nothing holy about the language of math itself, nor the industrial academic curricula for teaching it. It is possible to become a great cook and adept with time and money without being institutionalized in school nor memorizing their formulas for the language of math.
Posted by P Flooers on August 17, 2012 at 5:16 am | permalink |
I think you underestimate the power of math by calling it a "representational language". Sure, to calculate how much money you make, you will use it as a simple translation and summary of money flow, but math itself is far more powerful. Saying math is only a representational language is like saying you only use language to ask for food and drink.
Posted by redrock on August 17, 2012 at 9:09 am | permalink |
Redrock—well, duh. Of course, there is hyperbole. Of course math is more. But anyone who thinks institutional curricula conveys the power, majesty, or magic of math is mistaken. And anyone who thinks learning to function well in society requires 13 years of drill and kill is guilty of the system's own hyperbole. Don't believe the hype!
And while we're at it: FREE PUSSY RIOT!
Posted by P Flooers on August 17, 2012 at 1:48 pm | permalink |
functioning well in society and having knowledge and understanding of math are unrelated. You can be a shopkeeper in a country store and could function perfectly in your community without any knowledge of more then addition and subtraction. But our world today is highly organized and technical – so, many professions do require math, and I personally think that at least a basic level of math knowledge is a good thing. The same with a basic knowledge of a second language, and music, or the ability to cook a simple meal and clean your house. I also don't think all students need to learn math in a practical context – many students will prefer this approach, but not all. Some prefer an abstract view and teaching of the subject (I know that I did).
Posted by redrock on August 18, 2012 at 11:01 am | permalink |
anything beyond basic math is for engineers or people who have to deal with statistics, etc.
For balancing check book, cooking, selling/buying, etc. we just need basic math.
Posted by karelys on August 17, 2012 at 12:51 pm | permalink |
I had the chance to chat with my brother this morning while he played an online multiplayer videogame. I wanted to tell him about how I want to unschool my kids. I wanted to talk about this with someone other than my husband. So I started by telling him that research shows how video games can do wonders for kids' brains.
Then I told him about unschooling and told him the story of your son learning to type out of need. He thought it was a wonderful idea.
I like sharing my thoughts with people who will accept them and like them because I am tired of the naysayers. By the way they look all the same.
My brother is artistic and very smart but always sucked at school. He is a great problem solver but he's not driven. Hardly anyone would take him seriously. But I know how he survived through the school years and always mourned the fact that he didn't have a good environment to thrive. Something that would make the best of his awesome abilities.
I told him about math and your story of your young son with the eggs. And how they live in a farm and how they reacted to unlimited video games.
Then my brother goes on to tell me a very detailed and intelligent explanation of why he believes unschooling would prepare my child so much better for life and how he wishes he had had such an opportunity.
Such a happy morning.
Posted by karelys on August 17, 2012 at 11:49 am | permalink |
I learnt to touch type because of msn. In highschool, if you weren't fast enough on msn you got left out of the conversation.
born 1984
Posted by Joan on August 20, 2012 at 2:04 am | permalink |
Seems like, the people who find math easy, are getting other subject without difficulties as well. I don't know how to explain this but from what Ive seen that's the case.
Posted by Marcel on August 17, 2012 at 12:01 pm | permalink |
The problem is a sort of education inflation. Long ago, only those few people who were going to college went to high school. Only those few people would study math from algebra up. Now it's assumed or claimed (i.e. my kid's kindergarten made a big deal proclaiming it) that every kid should go to college. And so every kid has to get squeezed through a college prep curriculum, which includes algebra, geometry, trig, etc. (And, conversely, college education has been dumbed down to where even Harvard needs remedial classes).
Why? The most common jobs in the country are retail food service. You don't need college for that. You certainly don't need algebra. The cash registers don't even have numbers on the buttons, just pictures.
What this country needs is more dropouts. And those dropouts should be learning more useful things.
Posted by Dropout on August 18, 2012 at 4:00 am | permalink |
I have to say that I agree with this in many ways. Learning is genetic. Kids who are math geniuses generally have a parent who is in a math-oriented field. Kids who get 800 on their SAT generally have a parent who also tests very well.
So there are exceptions, sure. First-generation immigrant families who did not have opportunities do not have parents who got 800 on the SAT. But the parents probably knew their whole life that they were book smart.
What really gets me is parents who were not good at school thinking that they are going to have kids who are good at school. It's genetic. You make kids with DNA from you.
Here's another thing that drives me nuts, while I'm at it: Parents who have a ton of money so they put their kids in a really academically tough school. As if because you made a lot of money you also made kids who are good at school: they don't go together. If you were not good academically you are not likely to have kids who are academic geniuses.
They will be geniuses in something else. Just like, presumably, you are. So you need to find that. And dropping out of school does not seem like a crazy idea when you do not come from a family of people who is great at school.
Some of you will hate the idea that you are how you are born. But there is good argument that your academic abilities are what you are born with. And they are genetic. Here's a great book on that by Bryan Caplan:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0465028616/?tag=brazecaree-20+caplan
Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on August 20, 2012 at 4:00 am | permalink |
Dropout's point speaks to my own question: What to do when you have a child who is a very APPLIED math thinker, but doesn't really like Math as a subject to study (i.e., curriculum, standards, etc.) As much as I agree with all the commenters about the general use of math as it applies to real life, what about EXAM Math, that is, SAT, ACT, etc. , that would allow or disallow entrance into a college program that may or may not be related to math? How do we balance applied math with that which shows up on tests (because you have to admit, it's almost its own beast!)
Posted by cris on August 18, 2012 at 11:52 am | permalink |
Check out a blog post I wrote about this! You can definitely enjoy math, but not math from the standard curriculum.
http://patricklublog.wordpress.com/2012/09/23/i-dont-need-her-love-ive-got-math/
Posted by Patrick on September 25, 2012 at 11:58 am | permalink |
My Maths experience at school was so dreadful as a 28 adult I still have low Maths self esteem. When I use it at work and I get it right and I am quick I surprise my self. The little voice says 'wait, you did remedial Maths and needed extra help, you shouldn't be good at that'.
Again Ms Trunk you have challenged me that it may be negligent to send my children to school, even in Australia (where we call it Maths not Math).
Cheers.
Posted by Joan on August 20, 2012 at 2:02 am | permalink |
Financial education is more important than Math. Power of assets, Rich Dad Poor Dad stuff, there is a boardgame.
Posted by Joan on August 20, 2012 at 2:08 am | permalink |
As a math major in college (now a photographer) I kind of agree with this. Any math you learn in school is largely useless and can easily be learned as an adult when you put it in a practical situation like underwriting real estate etc.
I do think however that everyone should take a 'basics of math class' at a fairly young age, which I don't think exists. This class would teach everyone what math is, why it is important, what each type of math does, i.e. how calculus is used in the real world, what type of math finance professionals use, etc. We teach high school students calculus, but don't ever focus it practically in a real world situation. We should start with the end career and then work backwards to show kids what math they would need to become proficient at to be successful in this career vs. teaching them every type of math but neglecting how they might be useful to these children longterm.
For instance, instead of teaching young kids every little details of calculus, we should teach them that calculus is how NASA engineers can calculate how to launch a spaceshuttle and have it intersect with the moon's orbit.
Also, math phobia is a huge thing that stops people from learning really simple rules.
And I think the process of learning math concepts is important, but can probably be substituted with other critical learning exercises.
Posted by James M on August 20, 2012 at 9:41 am | permalink |
Obviously math is being taught in high school as a fetish. The vast majority of even the best math students aren't going to use any of it in their careers. Good grades in math and good scores on math tests are important not to show that someone has learned anything useful (by and large, it's not), but as a proxy for intelligence. This intelligence test proxy is used in undergraduate and graduate admissions and by future employers (whether or not math is part of the program or part of the career).
The question is not whether it's useful for careers – if it ends up being useful, you can always learn it later. I didn't take a single math class past 10th grade. But when I needed to, I taught myself enough stats to work as a senior statistician, programming complicated databases and running ANOVAs on huge (million+) data sets.
The question is whether, in an educational system based from day one on competition, we can ever back off on it.
Posted by Math fetishist on August 20, 2012 at 11:23 am | permalink |
The anti-math education commentary here is really sad.
It is a sad reflection of our math education system.
It is a sad reflection on the people who claim to be "doing better" than our public education system. Yet making their math education decisions based on that same environment.
Math is an amazingly powerful tool to give you (and your child) a competitive advantage in the world. You cannot consider being a doctor, engineer, programmer, or any natural or social scientist without it.
If you run a business, you really benefit from being able to model (mathematically) what your business is, what your cash flows are, what kind of margin you want to make, your growth, etc.
Too many businesses fail because they did not "run the numbers" (build a good mathematical model) of what they were doing and how it would could work out, what parts of their business are critical to their success.
If you aren't in business, you still need to be smart about math to make intelligent decisions on loans, investments, insurance, retirement planning, and mortgages.
Good, hard analytic skills are more critical today than they ever were before. You are closing off your kids' future opportunities by neglecting math (yours too). And its not just math, you really need to understand programming as well.
Posted by Steven Davis on August 20, 2012 at 11:58 am | permalink |
I actually agree with your point of view, but not for the reasons you give.
I know for a fact that you don't need to be able to run mathematical models to run a business. But studying higher math — even though my talents lie solidly in the verbal realm — actually taught me that I could indeed do anything I set my mind to, even though the process might be incredibly painful. In that respect, the time and effort proved invaluable.
And even elementary geometry proofs definitely opened my mind to a more rigorous way of thinking, which was very interesting and satisfying in itself!
Posted by Deborah Hymes on August 21, 2012 at 11:48 pm | permalink |
I did pretty well in math in high school, but burned out at Pre-Calc. Even though I didn't know a ton, when I got to art college I was a friggin math genius by comparison, because my peers had decided at some point they they were *visual*, they were *artists*, so they weren't going to be natural at math.
Because they were never forced to learn something, they didn't think they COULD. I've also heard from "unschooled" kids (which is what you seem to be leaning towards) that they had a very hard time learning new topics and skills they weren't interested in, because they never had to.
My takeaway? I'm glad I learned math not because it was useful, but because I was taught that I COULD learn anything, even if it wasn't my thing, even if I wasn't interested, and even if I didn't see the point at the time.
Posted by Hibryd on August 20, 2012 at 5:55 pm | permalink |
"I've also heard from "unschooled" kids (which is what you seem to be leaning towards) that they had a very hard time learning new topics and skills they weren't interested in, because they never had to."
The unschooled kids I've known have had no trouble learning what they need to accomplish their goals–including math. Often walking onto college campuses to make As and Bs in their first rigorous academic experiences.
Posted by P Flooers on August 20, 2012 at 7:00 pm | permalink |
wasn't the point made by hibryd that sometimes it is good to learn something where you do not see the immediate benefit to your goals and interests? Something which serves no purpose at the time?
Posted by redrock on August 21, 2012 at 10:14 am | permalink |
Steve, what you're missing here is that this isn't about hating math or finding it useless. It's about the inefficiency of forced, programmatic teaching methods, which may do more to prevent people from learning and liking math than to support it.
My math instruction in school really sucked. I didn't find any part of it useful, and it went painfully slowly. That's why I never wanted to take any more math classes after I dropped out of high school at 16.
And yet I ended up supporting myself and my family through math skills I learned independently because it turns out I'm pretty good at math (750 GRE).
So it's not about whether math ultimately may be useful. For some (in truth, a minority) it will be. And those people can learn it any time they want to. It's about whether forcing it on kids who aren't enjoying it, per your schedule not theirs, is a waste of time. And (though my 8 year old is studying algebra this year, because if there's one subject he loves it's math) I believe it is.
Posted by Math fetishist on August 21, 2012 at 7:33 am | permalink |
Your children are learning math every day playing the cello and violin. Measures are divided into beats divided into notes – all of which are fractions of the whole. Phrases, sections, movements are combinations of sound patterns which have mathematical relationships. This is why the <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-266871.html" NSA hires musicians. They can hear, see and understand mathematical patterns better than anyone else because they are not bound by the constraints of traditional mathematics.
Posted by CPR in Kansas on August 21, 2012 at 4:51 pm | permalink |
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the TV show "Numb3rs," which aired from 2005 – 2010. It was a fascinating show about a mathematician who uses math to help the FBI solve crimes.
Speaking of teaching to curiosity, the show is available to stream on Netflix and on Amazon Instant. I officially suck at math, but I was continually riveted by how math can inform your world in very specific ways, if that's how your mind works.
Posted by Deborah Hymes on August 21, 2012 at 11:42 pm | permalink |
How can you possibly avoid teaching your children math, and post such selfish excuses. If you're not good at it, so what! I was homeschooled and my mom could not do math very well at all, but my brother and I knew that it would help us gain logic skills, so we pushed ourselves through mid-level algebra. We finally did our senior years at public highschool where we had the opportunity to both pursue trigonometry, pre-calculus, etc., etc. And you know what? It really helps improve our thinking! I used to debate with the lazy classmates in highschool who used the same excuses as you. It's terrible to teach your children to have a bad, loser attitude towards anything. Shame on you! I feel bad for them!
Posted by Opal Whitcomb on September 16, 2012 at 8:46 am | permalink |
I am pondering…… Sadly, if my child wants to go to college he must take the SAT and/or ACT….or he can go to the local Community College and take remedial courses if needed. But, if he wants to earn a scholarship to the local State College, he'll have to score higher on his SAT then a public or private schooled student (in our state they have to score higher) So, he'll need the higher math to compete for college. Yes, he can cram at the last moment, but it could be too much too late if he doesn't have a good background in math. I went through the public school system and my math scores didn't allow me into the local state college. I took remedial math at the community college. Then started classes working towards a major which I had to change 2nd year because I couldn't pass the required math courses. Sadly, it was too much for me to learn…too little understood….I couldn't catch up. I tell my child that now is the time to do the ground work so that doors will be open for him when he is ready. For me many doors were closed. I don't want that for my child. So, it is hard for me to "let go" of math as part of our home education. Still struggling with it
Posted by Sheila on September 18, 2012 at 3:50 pm | permalink |
This is the crux of the issue. Teaching children enough skills to keep all of their options open so they can choose what interests them when they are older.
Most small children don't want to eat vegetables so do we just allow them to make that decision? I don't. I made my children keep eating their vegetables because they are good for them.And guess what? My children love vegetables now.
Being a parent (and particularly a homeschooling one) means opening the world for your children, giving them opportunities to find who they are, to follow their own paths. Sometimes, the children are incredibly motivated and love the subjects, other times, you have to be the adult and make them do it because it is good for them.
Like it or not, Math is an integral part of our society. You must give your children these tools —just in case they find themselves in need of them later in life.
I was a math major and math teacher and now a homeschooling mother. My son (like many in my family) wants to be an engineer. Since that is a math focused career, should we skip learning about literature and history?
I am sure that sounds as insane to you as not teaching your child math sounds to me.
Posted by D. A. on September 29, 2012 at 7:26 pm | permalink |
Huge. Eye. Opener. I literally just used the phrase "you don't try to be good at the things you aren't interested in" to my 13 year old son last night, regarding….drum roll……math. So, I shared this entry of your blog with our state office of public instruction with a plea that they at least read the article and consider the wisdom contained therein. I am saddened that my life does not allow for homeschooling right now. I am considering having my boys do high through home however. Also, if they show the ambition and desire, I would fully support them seeking their GED and skipping HS. It is clear that public school is failing, but I have to make the best of a bad situation right now. Thank you for thinking and living outside the box. You are helping people live better lives through what you do and say through your blog. <3
Posted by Sarah Griffith on September 26, 2012 at 1:00 pm | permalink |
I fortunately caught the following while skipping through the channels last night on TV (C-Span, Q & A – http://www.q-and-a.org/Transcript/?ProgramID=1411 ) and thought about math and homeschooling -
LAMB (C-Span interviewer): What about mom?
SLOAN (Fortune magazine, senior editor at large): She worked before they were married and after my father – and she worked – she did business out of her home, or out of our home when the kids were there. And that’s, by the way, when I learned how to count and learned to do all sorts of things because I helped her.
It was very heavy clerical stuff. And I got to the point where I did everything in my head because that was so much faster because there were no calculators. And, that’s been of great help to me journalistically because I can do numbers in my head. It’s my secret weapon."
So how can you possibly separate parenting and education?
Posted by Mark W. on October 1, 2012 at 8:50 am | permalink |
I've not read all the comments, but I'll cut to the chase: Nazis' are responsible. Re: Godwin's Law.
Posted by Andrew Reeve on October 5, 2012 at 11:27 pm | permalink |
I refuse to force my children to memorize times tables, what a waste of time! They can multiply and are starting to divide just fine without them and if they get stuck they can do what I'd do, get a calculator. Whoever said that they will be unable to carry on with science was mistaken, I was a professional scientist and I forgot all the maths I was ever taught in schools long ago. Including times tables. So no, I'm not forcing maths , unless they want, or need, me to help them on that journey.
Posted by Alyson on October 26, 2012 at 11:07 pm | permalink |
I was at the grocery store late one night. The cashier rang up the woman on front of me and the woman replied, "no, that's wrong".
The cashier looked annoyed. The woman asked to see the receipt then went on to point out that she hadn't been given he sale price on one item. She stated the correct sales price and gave what the total should be.
The cashier fixed the mistake and sure enough, the total came out to what the woman had said. The flabbergasted cashier asked how the woman had done that. I'll never forget her reply.
"When you never graduated high school you have to actually learn how to do things."
Posted by dcline1701 on October 27, 2012 at 5:48 pm | permalink |
This is terrible. I didn't care about math when I was a kid and now as an adult I'm paying for it and am having to start from square 1 so I can finally do grade 12 level math to get into university.
Don't ruin your kids future by not teaching them math. What if they want to become doctors or something science related? They'll need everything up to calculus for that.
Posted by Loki on December 11, 2012 at 1:27 pm | permalink |
Learning Shakespeare is useless. If your kid loves Shakespeare, you don't need to teach them. If you're an actor, you can learn Shakespeare on the job. Kids will take the lead on learning basic Shakespeare (they will certainly hear "To be or not to be" a million times on their own). There are many other ways to teach how to think. You should teach curiosity instead.
Your arguments can be applied to ANY form of scholarship. Why are you still teaching history, science, grammar, or literature?
Posted by Todd on December 17, 2012 at 1:08 pm | permalink |
Sure, they'll learn algebra and differential equations on the job. Not on jobs that use them.
Reminds me of a political commentator that was criticizing Bill Clinton's economic policies. It wasn't actually the policy that was being criticized. No, it was that the Clinton White House spoke of rates of rates. This commentator said no such thing existed. Never mind things like acceleration, products of rational numbers, and second derivatives.
Don't teach your kids math. They'll thank you if they ever want to go into the sciences. Particularly for not helping them learn it when their brains are best suited to picking it up.
Posted by Al on December 24, 2012 at 3:18 am | permalink |
The time they will best pick up math is when they are a little older (teens) and wanting it for themselves. The Sudbury School proves this every year. They learn the whole k-12 maths in eight weeks.
http://www.besthomeschooling.org/articles/math_david_albert.html
Posted by MoniqueWS on December 24, 2012 at 7:19 am | permalink |
Ugh too early for me … K-6 maths in 8 weeks when they are 9-12 years old and want it. Differential equations is a college maths course.
Posted by MoniqueWS on December 24, 2012 at 7:21 am | permalink |
Part of the problem is most of us got a crap deal when it comes to how we were taught math as kids . The goal should be to show the math in the world, not just teach the basics and how to balance a check book (important, but that is accounting, not math).
Watch this: http://youtu.be/NWUFjb8w9Ps
Posted by Al on December 24, 2012 at 3:31 am | permalink |
I started homeschooling my 7 year old this year. He's a bright kid, but just doesn't seem to "get" math. I think this is mainly because he doesn't like it. He taught himself to read by age 4. Last year, when he was in public school,they tested his reading and said he was already on a 4th-5th grade level. However, he is not an avid reader and doesn't read other than when we do his school work. He's also a technology buff. He loves science and tolerates social studies. I have been worried about him not understanding math and after reading this, I think it's pretty much because he doesn't want to do it. It doesn't interest him so he doesn't care to learn it. He also has ADHD and so it's extra difficult to get him to pay attention to something he doesn't like….
Posted by Nikki on January 9, 2013 at 9:02 am | permalink |
Math is in our everyday world. It is much harder to learn to recognize it and share it in the every day world than it is to put them in front of a workbook.
Look for it yourself and share it with your son. Look for it in the things he enjoys. Show and share it with him there.
One of my boys needed some carpentry projects – sawing, hammering, trying to put stuff together – before he wanted to get on with some math. Baking helped too. First LEGO Robotics was another place my kids discovered a need/interest in math.
It doesn't have to come from a text or workbook.
Posted by MoniqueWS on January 9, 2013 at 9:42 am | permalink |
Actually, after reading the article and comments (especially by the ones who claim to have been math majors), the fundamentals of the above conjecture(s) are simply wrong. Why? because they lack a definition of what is "mathematics". Empirically there are three branches of academic mathematics: pure, applied, an educational. What is taught in high school is a small portion of mathematics called computational science, which utilizes operators on elements of sets of real, phase and sometimes complex space. AP AB/BC calculus is deceiving. None of those classes deal with what makes up mathematics, which are proofs. In practice and in theory, mathematics is 99% proofs and 1% counterexamples. That is the reason why I went into mathematics, so I don't have to deal with numbers. However, the only time a high school student in the US is exposed to proofs is in Geometry. Even undergraduate engineers at MIT are not mandatorily exposed to General Topology, Measure Theory, etc. So even they don't have an inkling to what constitutes mathematics. The irony is everything is driven by the rigorous notions of mathematics which are set theory and logic. Those two elements are the foundation to everything except religion and/or faith (one can debate that). So teaching basic mathematics (set theory and logic) are essential to understand the world (in all its form) that surrounds us.
Posted by MensaFloyd on January 9, 2013 at 3:43 pm | permalink |
Wow. Most of what was said on here is BS. Why do people HATE math? It's the only thing in this world that actually makes sense and doesn't contradict itself. Find a counterexample to prove me wrong.
Posted by Tyler on January 10, 2013 at 8:56 pm | permalink |
I went to public school. I find that the problem with math is how it's taught. I was taught HOW to solve equations. They never taught us WHY we're solving these problems, WHY we use certain formulas, why why why. They taught us how to solve math problems, but not why we structure certain problems in way that actually helps us solve the issue!
Posted by Dave on January 19, 2013 at 8:51 am | permalink |
The problem with only teaching what math children ask to learn is that sometimes we don't know what we want to learn. I *am* interested in math. I like doing math, I have all the good 2-to-3-hundred-page textbooks (Rudin, Kisileiv (I have no idea how to spell that in English)), I do MathCounts and the AMC 8 and AMC 10, my dad has a math degree (kind of, it's mathematical logic or something, when I last asked he said I didn't know enough math to understand it yet) but I still don't know what math I'm going to do after I finish calculus (Rudin! RUDIN! Proving stuff, not arccosine-of-bla-bla-bla) in a few semesters.
I went to kindergarten in a public school, where I was annoyed at how easy the arithmetic was, but what people around my age tell me of middle and high school math is just terrifying. Also, the vast majority of people I asked who go to public school (I live by an elementary school, so I went there around 3:30 and asked random people 'what is your opinion on math?' Not exactly ideal scientific method, but whatever) said they 'hated math'. It's sad that what they think math is is really not even a significant fraction of arithmetic, and that, despite everything, I think if I spent more than a few years in that program I'd 'hate math' too, if only out of ignorance.
Posted by Anonymous on January 21, 2013 at 1:58 am | permalink |
I totally agree. I remember that I knew a lot about physics and chemistry when I left school, which to this day I have never used. I was also forced to learn French, which is brilliant because Australians often decide to take day trips to the Alps.
What is the point in teaching school kids advanced things like trigonometry and physics when they don't even know simple life skills? When I am walking and come to a hill, I look at it and if its too steep I don't walk up it. I don't need to do math to work out the angle of incline to tell me that it is too much for my lazy ass.
Read full blog post on why we should teach kids some practical skills in school here http://irkitated.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/teach-kids-practical-skills-in-school.html
Posted by Ed on January 21, 2013 at 6:03 pm | permalink |
I don't think there's much point in teaching it to kids who don't want to learn it. Just have the basics. I always found it extremely easy and got a double major, one in mathematics, with minimal effort. However, I only used this to bolster my resume… In fact, I only use it in my everyday life in calculating the shortest driving times, when I'm paying just the right amount to get back the coins that I want for change, when I am analyzing any sort of situation… well, that actually sounds kind of useful but… the only thing it's ever done for me is help me to get an entry-level job in investment banking that pays $80000 a year. OH WAIT, MATH IS INDISPENSABLE. And if you don't want your kids to be poor and/or uneducated, then I recommend having them master middle- and high-school mathematics because 1. it is easy and 2. it pays. Why would you want to shoot your own children in the foot? I think that is sadistic.
Posted by John on January 23, 2013 at 9:48 pm | permalink |
Based on the statements:
"He is not great at multiplying two digits by two digits, but honestly, neither am I."
"My older son learned math basics in school. Both sons liked math and then lost interest at long division. This is not a surprising: long division is largely useless."
It seems as though the reason you do not think that teaching your children math at home is really because it is not something you yourself truly understand.
If you and your son had a deeper understanding of why you execute the rote procedures that you follow when calculating multi-digit multiplication facts (these are not "problems" to be solved as they are not contextual in nature) or better yet, if you could look at those quantities more flexibly, you wouldn't even need to do the rote procedures like long division.
Your children may pick up on what you call "basic math" quickly…but unless you dig a little deeper, that's all they will ever be able to do.
Posted by Mathteacher on February 5, 2013 at 10:36 pm | permalink |
Math isn't taught beyond long division so people can memorize long formulas, or retain any of the information. you're taught math as a practice for your problem solving skills. No one expects you to remember to do regression 20 years from when you learned it, but the skills you gained from practicing it still remain. Even if you dont "get" it, the brain still works and fires nurons like a mad man trying to understand making it "work out." Saying we dont need to learn anything after basic math, is just like saying people dont need to exorcise if they're good enough to live untill tomarrow.
Posted by Omgpeople-_- on February 8, 2013 at 1:07 am | permalink |
I think maths is stupid and our kids need to be taught what they want to taught not what is mandatory to be taught my oldest hates math and the teachers think she is stupid for not knowing trigonometry I don't even know how to myself I think they should consider it be a subject they want to learn not what they need to learn
Posted by Olivia burgin on February 10, 2013 at 12:24 am | permalink |
I've been a computer systems administrator since 1998 and my 4th grader has been crying over 60-90 minutes of homework almost every night. The other night I tried helping her and had no idea to do her fraction homework. I suddenly realized that if I could not do it and was happy and successful, why should she? She hates it as much as I did at her age. Furthermore, I had never seen those problems since grade school. So I started Googling "why teach math" and eventually landed upon Penelope's blog. Prior to finding her blog I found various feeble attempts by math geeks to justify the teaching of math. It's great that some of you enjoy this sort of mental exercise, but to many of us it is entirely pointless except in very specific applications in our work or hobbies, in which case we pick it up rapidly and move on with our lives. I'm sick of how math has dominated society's focus in education, and I won't let it ruin another child's chances at achieving greatness in something other than a numbers-dominated field.
Posted by Jason on February 10, 2013 at 1:42 am | permalink |
Math is fundamentally the language of our universe. Math explains how the whole thing works – scientists are still working on it too and using math. Obviously, the amazing patterns in nature that are directly connected to math have not caught your eye (e.g. the spiral of a fern frond; the span of a butterfly's wings compared to its body, etc). I cannot imagine not teaching these things to kids. And, by the way, my son is an A-student in math and it doesn't come from teaching himself. We work together on his homework, sometimes by utilizing the Kahn Academy website, and things are made clear to him that are not naturally clear. Sometimes that is necessary.
This blog post really finalized my gut feeling that Penelope Trunk is a BS'er. And that's not short for Bachelor of Science!
Posted by Penelope (Not Trunk) on February 11, 2013 at 8:10 pm | permalink |
Math is the language with which every important scientific discovery has been described. Not only is understanding it required to fully appreciate past discoveries, but it's also required in order to make future ones.
Furthermore, you can't predict one's adulthood preferences by their childhood dislikes. Your kid may not like math now, but what if he/she decides down the road to be an engineer? It's going to be pretty hard to enter any STEM field if mom/dad instilled the opinion that math is just a time-waster.
Posted by Will F on February 16, 2013 at 11:55 am | permalink |
Based on this reasoning, we don't need to teach our kids science, or social studies or history or composition or anything they don't like. Hell, why teach them anything at all? After all, they'll learn what they need themselves … right? It's this type of thinking that is turning the US into the second tier nation we are sadly becoming.
Posted by Pauline on March 14, 2013 at 8:04 am | permalink |
actually, yes. Sadly, most people just don't get this type of learning/parenting/schooling. Believe it or not, when education is not pushed, most kids will learn just fine. Learning is natural. We just smash it out of them by pushing too much on them. In time most kids will learn all they need to head out into the adult world…including college. Do the research, educate yourself, and realize that the school systems are not ideal for learning..
Posted by Sheila on March 16, 2013 at 8:22 pm | permalink |
Another totally right-on post, Penelope. I home school my kids using an online curriculum approved by the state, because my state doesn't legally allow home-schooling. My younger son, in 8th grade, it a whiz at science and history and had finished 80% of the curriculum by December. He reads at a 12th grade level (at least) by the school's own testing standard, so I don't make him do vocabulary and grammar. To hear him speak, no one would ever imagine that he would benefit from diagramming a sentence. He absolutely hates math. So what does the school do? They lock him out of history and science, where he is excelling, to force him to do math and language arts. Is this working? No. Can I physically force him to learn what he doesn't want to learn? No. No one can physically force anyone else to learn what they don't want to learn.
Further, I have looked at the 8th grade algebra curriculum. Where I left off there were lessons about graphing absolute values. I personally have found algebra useful as a critical thinking and problem solving tool (even though I too hated and failed math in school on a regular basis) but I cannot find a practical use for graphing absolute values. If a child is interested in learning how to graph absolute values, go for it. If not, oh well. Move on.
When you first started writing about home schooling I made a comment that if kids learn to love reading, and if they are in an environment that encourages their curiosity, that's all they need. I was excoriated for that comment because it ignored math. But guess what. If you're interested in math, you can actually learn it by reading, and you'll have a hard time learning it if you don't read.
But that's an aside. Human beings learn because that's what we're made of. Given the chance, pursuing what we want to learn leads us to what we need to learn. It only looks like we're not learning if we're institutionally forced to learn things that don't interest us.
So – I'm with you. I'm not teaching math, either. (And P.S. my older son, a junior in high school, is learning math just fine in spite of my attitude, BECAUSE HE WANTS TO.)
Posted by Jayne on March 14, 2013 at 9:39 am | permalink |
I agree with where this article is going, but I think that framing it as a "math" concern misses the point and prevents a meaningful discussion on the larger, and relatively more important issue.
The problem isn't that we shouldn't teach our children math. In fact, the problem isn't math at all. The problem is that we aren't teaching our children how to think logically and mathematically.
Think about it this way: learning division (or any math concept) is not about memorizing a series of number and formulas, it's about understanding a relationship between certain groups of things. Unfortunately, math tends to be viewed as the former more so than the latter and so when we struggle with the memorization of this data, we tend to think that we are not good at math… and that it's ok to give up.
The thing is, math is a part of everything we do. It's not just numbers and data, but processes, patterns, operations, problems, ideas, solutions, relationships, the list goes on. We cannot escape math and it's misleading to suggest that we can.
I suggest that the problem is not math in itself, but how we teach math (we don't teach kids how to think logically and mathematically, we just ask them to memorize information and abstract concepts).
Sure, some kids are born knowing how to think logically and mathematically and for those kids, memorizing data is not a problem. They will be good at math and they will go through life thinking that they are very smart (and perhaps they are).
This article though, is not for those kids, and that is why it's important to make this distinction between math and mathematical thinking. Because here's the thing –> the kids who are not naturally logical and mathematical thinkers can still learn math. How?
(a) by finding ways of teaching mathematical concepts in ways that resonate your child's particular way of thinking (e.g. http://bit.ly/XSVOSA), and
(b) by helping develop your child's logical-mathematical thinking (e.g. http://bit.ly/SLYwDw).
I think it's a mistake to vilify math (and this comes from someone who has never been "good at math"). Rather, I think we should steer the conversation towards ways of enhancing children's mathematical intelligence and help our children appreciate that not only is math more than just some numbers on a board but it is most certainly something within their grasp.
k (www.totthoughts.com)
Posted by Karla Valenti on April 23, 2013 at 5:07 am | permalink |
Or you could do what this man did http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/benezet/three.html#2
Posted by Amanda on April 30, 2013 at 8:58 pm | permalink |
Oops sorry. This was also interesting http://www.scribd.com/doc/14389275/And-Rithmetic-by-Daniel-Greenberg
Posted by Amanda on April 30, 2013 at 9:00 pm | permalink |